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Avi Loeb Comments on the UFO Files and Extraterrestrials

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Below is a transcript of the latest interview I had last evening with Al Arabiya English (AAE), the official English-language digital platform of Saudi-Arabia state-owned international news channel. AAE’s comments and questions are marked with AAE and my answers are marked with AL.

***

AAE: We’re joined now by Dr. Avi Loeb, who is a theoretical physicist and professor of science at Harvard University. He’s also the author of Interstellar, the search for extraterrestrial life and our future in the stars.

In fact, Dr. Loeb, it seems you’ve written numerous books on astrophysics and cosmology. I’d like to start by asking you, out of all of these files that have been released, there’s been audio files, videos, photos, some of them dating back to 1948, which ones have you found to be most thrilling?

AL: Well, I felt like a kid in a candy store because as a scientist, our conception of reality should be driven by evidence. And here is a trove of data that the U.S. government collected about objects that they cannot identify. The Pentagon and the intelligence agencies cannot figure out the nature of some of these objects.

I found most interesting a black sphere that was moving through the clouds. It didn’t look like a drone. It could be a balloon. We don’t have good assessment of its speed because we don’t know the distance to it. There was also an object that accelerated very quickly, much faster than you expect from a drone. But again, without knowing the distance, we can’t infer the actual value of the acceleration. There was a report by a senior intelligence officer from last year who went on a mission with a helicopter to identify an object and saw a swarm of orbs and other unusual phenomena there. That’s a testimony, not data from instruments. The question is whether he was looking at human-made drones, perhaps by adversarial nations. This illustrates the fact that these reports imply that the U.S. intelligence agencies are not doing a perfect job. They cannot identify objects that are potentially human-made, and that’s a serious national security concern. So, it’s a serious matter, and the question is how to resolve the nature of these objects.

If any of them is from outside of this Earth, of course, it’s the biggest discovery ever made by humanity.

AAE: Dr. Loeb, the images that some people are particularly excited about relate to what appears to be footage of a UFO being shot out of the sky to pieces. I don’t know if you saw that one, but what’s your explanation for that?

AL: That one is well understood. It’s a balloon. It was discovered shortly after the Chinese spy balloon was shot down. This one may be of civilian origin. We don’t know because the pieces landed in a place that was difficult to reach. But it was clearly a balloon.

There are also reports by astronauts that can be easily explained. For example, Buzz Aldrin spoke about flashes of light. Those can be introduced by high-energy charged particles, namely cosmic rays, that entered his eyeballs. The intensity of cosmic rays on the Moon or on the way to the Moon is 200 times larger than on the ground on Earth because we are protected by the blanket of the atmosphere and the magnetosphere — the magnetic field of the Earth, shielding us from these cosmic rays. There were also some lights in the photographs taken by the astronauts on the surface of the Moon. But I found that there are similar lights also in parts of the film of the Kodak camera that were not exposed to the lens of the camera. So clearly these are related to cosmic-rays and nothing else.

So, all in all it’s a mixed bag, but it’s a serious matter in the sense that some objects here on Earth are not being identified, and potentially they’re used for espionage or other military purposes. Many of them are found in military contexts like war zones, which are places where there are many eyes on the sky, many sensors looking around, and that’s where you expect to find objects that are not identified because they represent technologies that are not known to the intelligence agencies.

AAE: Dr. Loeb, it sounds like you’ve got a rational explanation for a number of the phenomena that were reported and released in these files. Doesn’t sound like you’ve seen anything that sounds like conclusive evidence of extraterrestrial life therefore.

AL: That’s correct. But, you know, just like seeking a marriage partner for life, you just need one. So, I think it’s worthwhile for scientists like myself to go through the data. In fact, there may be even better data released in the future and we can see if one in a million of the unidentified technological objects happens to be not human-made.

That would be an amazing discovery as it will change our perception about our place in the universe. We would realize that we are not at the top of the food chain, cosmologically speaking. Apparently, there is a visitor that was sent by a more accomplished technological civilization than we are, because they reached our backyard before we reached their backyard. And so, that motivates me. I’m not wasting my time because at the very least, I’m helping the Pentagon and the intelligence agencies figure out what such objects might be. So, I do think it’s the obligation of scientists to engage with such data that looks anomalous and figure out what it means. It’s like a detective story.

AAE: Do you think President Trump was right to go down this sort of transparency route? Should these files be released?

AL: I think so. I believe there was resistance to release them because it shows the vulnerability of the U.S. defense system if these unidentified objects are made by adversarial nations. Also, some of the data was collected by classified sensors and you don’t want to expose the abilities of those sensors to adversarial nations. But, on top of that, there is of course the psychological tendency of bureaucrats or administrators within government to hide the fact that they’re not doing their job. And they can do that by classifying documents and data. The U.S. defense budget in 2026 is close to a trillion dollars and yet they are unable to identify some objects in the sky. That’s embarrassing and that’s the reason for them to keep it under wraps. And I do think that exposing that failure to identify objects is important because it will bring the U.S. to a better place. At the very least, it brings this subject of unusual objects to the forefront of the public discourse and the scientific mainstream.

But my hope is that if there is something that came from outside of Earth, it will be unraveled in this process. And the best we can do is to collect new data rather than obsess with past reports because we can’t go back in time and check exactly the circumstances. A better approach is to use the best available sensors we have right now and look at the sky and we don’t need to wait for the government to tell us what’s in the sky. That’s the approach that I’m taking with the Galileo Project that I’m leading at Harvard University. We built three observatories. We monitor the entire sky at all times in these three locations. We collect data on millions of objects. And frankly, any object that is human-made is boring as far as I’m concerned. We’re looking for outliers that move outside the performance envelope of human-made technologies.

AAE: Some of the older files in this dossier date back to the 1940s. Could you perhaps now with the Artificial Intelligence technology we have today finally debunk them or explain them?

AL: AI cannot improve the quality of the data. The subject gets more attention now because the detections are more significant as we have better sensors, better cameras. Just look at the Artemis II images that were taken of the Moon with the latest cameras compared to those used by the Apollo astronauts half a century ago. Obviously, the images are far better and we don’t see any lights hovering over the Moon. So, it’s clear that using better sensors gives a better understanding of what’s going on. That’s one reason that we detect things that previously may have been ignored. In addition, we can do much better follow-up research now with those excellent sensors that we have. Of course, there is more cluttering as there are more than ten thousand communication satellites around the earth and other gadgets like drones that complicate the picture. But I think we can approach it with much more rigor and I do hope that this release would lead to more research on this subject in the future so that we can tell if we are being visited by some cosmic neighbor, and whether there is a smarter kid on our cosmic block.

AAE: Statistically, we’re more likely today than ever to capture moving images or close-up photos of any inexplicable UFOs or whatever else that we might capture because every human pretty much on this planet nowadays has a smartphone in their pockets. Are you hopeful therefore that we will perhaps within our lifetime see something that is conclusive evidence one way or the other?

AL: One can be hopeful. UFOs are a mixed bag and most of the objects would be human-made or natural phenomena that we don’t fully understand. But we have to separate the wheat from the chaff. The key in doing science is not to detect a signal, but show that the signal is not just noise, name that a UFO is not just something that we don’t fully understand that happens to be in our neighborhood.

We also detect objects from outside the solar system in the form of interstellar objects. Over the past decade, astronomers detected them for the first time in history. So, that gives us an additional opportunity. The Rubin Observatory in Chile uses a camera of 3.2 gigapixels monitoring the southern sky every four nights and that would give us a much more data than before. So, all in all, I think we are at an exciting time and we should keep our eyes open.

I have the hope that we might find intelligence in outer space because when watching the news about geopolitics every day, I realize that there is room for improvement regarding human intelligence. So, my hope is that discovering alien intelligence will inspire us to do better. Encountering it will resemble a knock on the door by a neighbor. When the family hears that from inside the house, all the loud arguments quiet down. So, my hope is it will bring all of us to a better place because we would realize all humans here on Earth are in the same boat and should cooperate instead of fighting each other.

AAE: It’s a very good point actually, and it would certainly dissolve the separation between `us’ and `them’ among humans in the sense that we have this common unknown entity out there somewhere. But I want to ask you why you think there’s so much secrecy surrounding these files and who we keeping the secret from?

AL: As we’ve been saying this is something that should be of common interest to every human on the planet if you look at it from a scientific perspective, but from a national security perspective — the sensors being used are classified. You don’t want adversarial nations to be aware of their capabilities, and moreover, not identifying objects shows vulnerabilities. If these are human-made objects, then it means that the defense of the U.S. has holes in it. As you know, there was the Chinese spy balloon, and obviously there could be many more of them hovering over the U.S. and getting surveillance data. So, if the US implies that they cannot really figure out the identity of those objects, and the Chinese know about it, then they will put even more. So, there are good reasons why the Pentagon or the national intelligence agencies prefer to keep it under wraps. An additional incentive is for them not to be scrutinized by the U.S. Congress that they’re not doing their job. But if you look at data from decades ago, of course it’s not relevant for the battle field today. So, my hope is eventually there will be access to interesting data, and if it all turns out that all UFOs are human-made, so be it. It’s good to know that we’re not being visited.

When you imagine a dating partner of interstellar proportions from another star, you never know whether it will be friendly or maybe a serial killer. It’s a blind date. So, it’s good to check our cosmic environment just to make sure that we are not being visited. And if we are not, then we can then conclude that at least locally we are alone. We don’t know on the large scale of the Milky Way galaxy, perhaps there are other civilizations, but they’re not making their way to our backyard.

AAE: Is it just me or has there been a massive uptick in the last few months when this whole concept of discussing life beyond our planet? We’ve heard former President Obama talking about it in recent weeks saying that he thinks aliens do exist. President Trump has been making comments about this as he released the second of these batches of files. Why do you think this uptick of interest is happening right now?

AL: I do think this subject belongs to the mainstream because there are billions of Earth-Sun analogs within the Milky Way galaxy alone. And it’s like seeing billions of houses on the street that are resemble your house. Now, the mainstream of the astronomy community says: “Well, these houses probably have microbes. So, let’s look for microbes.” They choose to invest 10 billion dollars over the next two decades in the next space telescope called the Habitable World Observatory. But when I went on blind dates before I met my wife, I was aiming high, not low. I was not looking for the most mediocre dating partners that are everywhere. I was looking for someone who is more intelligent than I am. And I think we should adapt that strategy in the search for extraterrestrial life within the scientific community. This should be a subject that is discussed openly.

Of course, there are lots of crackpots that come up with ideas or stories that make no sense, but that should not prevent us from discussing the obvious possibility that most of the stars formed billions of years before the Sun and there were civilizations before us, because we could learn from them. They can produce technological signatures that are easier to detect than the chemical fingerprints of microbes. And so, we should invest similar levels of funding in the search for technological signatures as we do in the search for biological signatures. Right now, nearly all the federal money goes to the search for microbes, and I just don’t think it’s the right approach. I think we should discuss it openly as former President Obama indicated and as President Trump just did. This is a subject I’ve been promoting over the past decade or so because I think it belongs to the mainstream, and it could foster the most important scientific discovery made.

“Are we alone?” is the most romantic question in science. We would observe the universe differently if we find partners out there. Right now, all the textbooks, some of which I’ve written, focus on the universe as a collection of matter and radiation. But if it has intelligent beings, we can connect to it emotionally. These would be the siblings in our family and it will also imply for any religious person that God is not a parent that attends only to one child.

AAE: One of the places that is the most suitable location for observing the night sky is the country that I’m speaking to you from, Saudi Arabia, because there are vast areas with dark night skies that are free of light pollution, and what’s called astro-tourism is apparently something that is taking off in in in this particular country. So, by this logic, shouldn’t the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia have a high number of sightings of UFOs and inexplicable objects in the night sky?

AL: Potentially, yes. But the number of detected unidentified objects depends on how many people are looking up and how many observatories are constructed. I would highly recommend putting more observatories in the country that you’re in.

One thing about the lights coming from Earth is that, in principle, they can be seen from space, and Saudi Arabia has very bright parts that are probably visible all the way to the Moon. Someone out there could be looking at us, and we should be looking back at them. I once calculated how far away would the city like Tokyo be observable with the Hubble Space Telescope, and the answer is all the way to the distance of Pluto. So, if there was a city like Tokyo on Pluto, we would be able to see it with a Hubble Space Telescope. The only thing we need is the curiosity to motivate us to look up. Because most of the time we just focus on down-to-Earth matters. As kids, we are curious, but we lose that curiosity as we become adults. And all that I’m recommending is to maintain our childhood curiosity, because that will bring us to a better place where eventually all humans would be more cooperative than they are right now.

AAE: We’ve talked about some of what’s been in these files, the green orbs, the discs, the fireballs that are described in there. And I want to ask you about your own sort of evolution in this field and the evolution of your beliefs. Would you say you are more or less convinced today than you were at the start of your scientific career, which was in the 1980s?

AL: Yes, I’m much more intrigued about aliens today than I was before. First, we know about the existence of planets around every star and some of them are in the habitable zone. So, it’s not speculation that conditions similar to Earth may have emerged in billions of other places within the Milky Way galaxy alone, and there are a trillion galaxies like it in the observable volume of the universe. To assume that we are alone is very arrogant of us, as we are probably not the pinnacle of creation. There is something better than us and one way for us to learn about it is by searching for it because space is vast, time is very long and so that requires a special effort on our behalf to find the evidence. It’s not obvious. You need telescopes to see things and even with our best telescopes, we can see an object the size of a football field only out to the distance of the Earth-Sun separation as a result of it reflecting sunlight. It’s challenging to detect objects similar in size to the biggest rocket that humans constructed, Starship, which is roughly the size of a football field. So, there may be things around us that we haven’t detected as of yet, and that’s exciting.

That is a realization that I came about over the past decade with the discovery of interstellar objects. The first one was called `Oumuamua, which means a scout in the Hawaiian language. It was discovered by telescope in Hawaii, and was very strange because the amount of sunlight reflected from it changed by a factor of 10 as it was tumbling every 8 hours. And that meant that it has a flat and extreme shape. It was also pushed away from the Sun by some mysterious force without showing any evidence for evaporation cometary gas that would give it a push. So, it remains quite mysterious, and that’s what triggered my interest in searching in our backyard for a `tennis ball that was thrown by a neighbor’.

We haven’t done so, and it’s a new way of searching for technological signatures. In the past we focused on searching for radio signals. And frankly, radio signals are not used as much for communication today as they were a century ago. The Artemis II mission used lasers for communication. So, it may well be that the aliens forgot about using these ancient technologies — as far as they are concerned — if they had a thousand years, a million years, or a billion years of science and technology. We only had one century since quantum mechanics was discovered. And look how far we went over that time.

What we know is an island of knowledge in an ocean of ignorance. There is a lot for us to learn and that’s what makes me excited. I should say that I am as curious as I was at the young age. I haven’t changed much in that regard. I refuse to become the adult in the room. I don’t pretend to know things that I don’t know. It’s very uplifting to actually have the privilege of being a scientist when you can follow your childhood curiosity and be guided by evidence.

AAE: President Trump said as this latest batch of files was made public: “Let the people decide for themselves, quote, what the hell is going on.” Just to wrap up this conversation, Dr. Loeb, you’ve had a few days to work out what’s going on and look at these files. Which of all of the dossiers that have been released up until this point have given you the greatest cause for intrigue?

AL: I would say none of the objects that we were shown provides clear evidence for an extraterrestrial origin. I can potentially explain all of the evidence in terms of human-made technologies. So, I’m waiting for the next batch of files to be released. I’m sure the government has better data and they also potentially have some materials that were retrieved from crash sites, the way that some testimonies in Congress under oath were mentioning. I’m looking forward to that. Even if the government wants to keep this data classified, it would make sense to have a board or a committee with proper clearance that looks into the classified data and recommends to the President of the United States, President Trump, how to interpret that kind of data and what to make of it and how to move forward. If there is clear evidence for an extraterrestrial origin, we should decide how to inform the public and we should also develop a plan to protect planet Earth. And that would be extremely interesting.

AAE: Okay, we’re going to have to leave it there. It’s been a real pleasure talking to you, Dr. Avi Loeb, theoretical physicist and professor of science at Harvard University. We really appreciate your time today, sir. Thank you.

AL: Thanks for having me.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

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(Image credit: Lotem Loeb)

Avi Loeb is the head of the Galileo Project, founding director of Harvard University’s — Black Hole Initiative, director of the Institute for Theory and Computation at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, and the former chair of the astronomy department at Harvard University (2011–2020). He is a former member of the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology and a former chair of the Board on Physics and Astronomy of the National Academies. He is the bestselling author of “Extraterrestrial: The First Sign of Intelligent Life Beyond Earth” and a co-author of the textbook “Life in the Cosmos”, both published in 2021. The paperback edition of his new book, titled “Interstellar”, was published in August 2024.

Professional website:

https://lweb.cfa.harvard.edu/~loeb/

Social media:

https://avi-loeb.medium.com/
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfessorAviLoeb

https://open.spotify.com/show/1zhndXkvSY2b8FdjspFpCd
https://x.com/ProfAviLoeb

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